Curse

Snowman · Jul 17, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

I just don't get this obsession with raiseing the lvl cap. What difference does it make if your a lvl 20 fighting a lvl 28 mob, or a lvl 40 fighting a lvl48 mob. None. At least as far as I can see. The same applies to changeing the stats of the weapons, your will just be faceing mobs with more hp so it will make NO difference.

Variety is the spice of life!

But I do agree with you, im not botherd about the level cap at, I think its great... and actually Ranking up in HA is just as entertaining as leveling up for those who like to grind something. (though I realise I am comparing apples with oranges)

I had an interesting conversation with a friend who does all the PvE with Henchies.. he says that in factions one or two missions are very hard, nearly impossible to do with just henchies... this got me thinking about ways ANET will make additional chapters more 'difficult'

If you do any mission with a team full of real players on teamspeak.. its exceedingly boring!! (because they are insanly easy). so these missions where you hook up with another team does make it more interesting.

However, is that the only way of making future chapters more challenging?.. by making it so that, gradually, missions become harder and harder to 'hench' ?

if everything in Chapter 3 is doable with just hench, and all the levels are the same (which they will be) then appart from the new classes, skills and weapons.. what new challenges are there? how can they spice up the pve side?..

Its like games like Dungeon Siege, once you have gone through the game.. sure you can take your character through new maps and new monsters.. but really, its the same thing, and becomes boring.

anyway, I hope they come up with something

Omega X · Jul 17, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

I just don't get this obsession with raiseing the lvl cap. What difference does it make if your a lvl 20 fighting a lvl 28 mob, or a lvl 40 fighting a lvl48 mob. None. At least as far as I can see. The same applies to changeing the stats of the weapons, your will just be faceing mobs with more hp so it will make NO difference.

For one, it gives a sense of accomplishment. Going from 1 to 20 in Factions was like a simple drive to the store. People like to feel like they can accomplish something in the game. Raising the level cap also allows Anet to spread out content and difficulty. Now they "have" introduced titles to absorb some of that disappointment. BUT Titles are a different story.

They don't have to raise it in PvP since its "supposed" to be balanced play. But when they eliminate their options by giving PvP and PvE the same rules, it makes the game less appealing.

Don Zardeone · Jul 17, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

1. ANet said they weren't going to add new stuff to old chapters.
2. ANet said that the storage would be completely free.

1. ANet added those greens.
2. Storage was NOT free.

Conclusion: ANet lies
Conclusion2: ANet will add new content to make the new players who bought chapters 2, 3, 4, etc get interested in old chapters so those old chapters will be bought again. ANet will, in that way, recycle old content and make money off of old cows.
Conclusion3: no worries... as long as they don't have a dumbass running the show

Domino · Jul 17, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

A-net isn't the only game company to over-hype their game.

Bethesda hyped Oblivion's Radiant AI as "revolutionary" and they made it sound like NPCs were going to acquire sentience and take over the game world. Needless to say, Radiant AI is still pretty quirky, unrealistic, and was obviously overhyped.

So the point is.... be cautious. Just about everyone I know has a bad taste in their mouth from Factions, and as a result, Chapter 3 is going to be put under the microscope by people before they dish out another 49.99

All I can say is this. If there aren't radical and fundamental changes and improvements to the "Guild Wars formula" - I'm probably going to pass on Chapter 3. I found the "new factions skills" which were only renamed copies of Prophecies skills to be a pretty tacky stunt on the half of A-net. They toted on their site, before Factions was released, how every class was getting new skills and whatnot... and most of them are just photocopied prophecies skills. I'd say that's pretty misleading, to say the least.

and the extra storage options? Those were obviously a gimmick to get people to buy Factions. Just like certain Prophecies elites aren't cappable by Factions players (forcing them to buy Prophecies if they want to use certain elites) It's not like you are missing out though, as the material storage has several fundamental flaws:

1. The materials that you NEED large quantities of (Tanned hides, etc) can only hold 250....

2. The materials no one needs 250 of (Rolls of Vellum... ink vials....) will never be filled, and their value is so low that it's pointless to hoard them.

On top of that, one of the big problems with what they are doing is they are separating the games like this. The populations of each will become thinner and thinner. Places like the Henge of Denravi frequently have about 5 people in them.

I think it has to do with this staggered development mentality... they are cranking these expansions out, and it's obvious that the two dev teams don't talk to eachother, because the problems with Prophecies were still there in Factions, and I predict many of the problems with Factions are going to be right there in Chapter 3. I would rather have 1 massive expansion, that's polished and full of content, every year... rather than half-assed, buggy, ship-it-out-the-door-as-fast-as-you-can sequels that follow the same tired formula.

just my .02

Shyft the Pyro · Jul 17, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The biggest problems, in my opinion, are the size and frequency of the chapters. Everyone understands that as a business venture, ANet is trying to increase revenue by releasing chapters every 6 months rather than every year, but 6 months may not be enough time for some players to fully explore a chapter's content, and that may turn off later purchases. Further, if the players feel 'rushed' through the content in order to complete it before the next chapter's release, they may become disappointed in ANet's business scheme and stop buying subsequent chapters.

Conversely, to make sure that people breeze through chapters in time to buy new ones, ANet has reduced content on the PvE side. I don't count "recyclable" PvP content because though its location may have changed (AvA instead of HoH now, etc.) its nature is still the same - kill players for reward. As many people have stated before, PvP "content" reinvents itself through the imagination of the players, so it requires the least input on ANet's part. But since PvP content is essentially the same across all chapters, it isn't a sufficient driving force behind people's desire to purchase new chapters. PvE content does that.

In Factions, PvP was tied to a PvE game mechanic to provide an additional incentive: if you do good in AvA or faction-producing PvP areas, your alliance gets to see its name on the map. This, however, sets a bad precedent. If Chapter 3 does not have the same ability, what non-PvE incentive is there for town-holding alliances to move? If the town-holding is still an option, how many alliances will want to lose their prestige in Factions by moving to Chapter 3 and restarting from nothing again? And if Chapter 3 includes something even more advantageous, what incentive will there be when Chapter 4 rolls around?

In short, I believe PvE content is extremely important in influencing player decisions on buying new chapters, and ANet should recognize that. PvP may be the easiest thing to implement, but unless ANet wants GW to become Counterstrike:Fantasy, they need to work on the PvE content in future chapters.

Rent · Jul 17, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

All I can say is this. If there aren't radical and fundamental changes and improvements to the "Guild Wars formula" - I'm probably going to pass on Chapter 3. I found the "new factions skills" which were only renamed copies of Prophecies skills to be a pretty tacky stunt on the half of A-net. They toted on their site, before Factions was released, how every class was getting new skills and whatnot... and most of them are just photocopied prophecies skills. I'd say that's pretty misleading, to say the least.

Here we go let's do a count:

Thirty skills were added for each class. Of those, five for each profession were "copy" skills.

Thirty out of one hundred eighty is not "most", as most implies a majority, and this is certainly far from the case. Whether these new skills are as powerful as the old ones is irrelevant.

felinette · Jul 17, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I had an interesting conversation with a friend who does all the PvE with Henchies.. he says that in factions one or two missions are very hard, nearly impossible to do with just henchies

Yes, and couple that with the population being spread across two continents now, and you can see a looming problem as they add more chapters. I've been surprised at how few players are around. When I login at 7am on Sunday morning, I expect only one district at most mission areas. I don't expect that on a weekend afternoon or in the evenings, but that's what's happening. For PvE, they need to ensure that the game is completely playable with henchies because it's just not possible to get a group all the time, not because of cookie-cutter groups or hate of certain professions, but because there simply aren't enough players available. And if I have the choice of waiting for an hour to get into a group or playing another game for an hour, guess what? So I see that as the number one potential "killer" of PvE GW right now--the population will be spread too thin and if Anet is designing missions that are impossible to complete with henchies, or without "real" healers, etc., then they're just shooting themselves in the foot. Bigger problem: people who play the game for the social aspect and who like grouping with real people will likely be frustrated and move on. Anet needs to figure out how to add content without thinning the population further.

I also agree with those that say PvE must be separated from PvP in order to keep things fresh for both. To continue to force them together will only promote mediocracy. We've seen that already with Factions.

Quote:

but 6 months may not be enough time for some players to fully explore a chapter's content,

You can easily explore PvE Factions in 6 months, even if you're a casual gamer.

felinette · Jul 17, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

The one thing that might have done it was far more frequent game additions. A more dynamic environment, where you might be exploring old trodden ground and run across a new area, a new NPC with a quest that continues some aspect of the story, new monsters, a Charr resurgance and series of subsequent events - possibly like the holiday events, but not holidays events but major game events. At the very least monthly, some new story, mission and quest developments. They dont seem to have the resources to create quite that dynamic a play environment, but I am sort of at a loss to what else they can do.

That's a fabulous idea that would help to keep PvE players active. Right now, you can "finish" the game and have nothing much to do, especially in Factions. Okay, they added titles, and that adds some life, but who wants to map the entire Tyria and Cantha with more than one or two characters, for example? The titles will get old quickly, too. With Factions being so short that you can beat it within a week or two and then have nothing to do unless you like farming, they need to add free content here and there until the next chapter comes out. Otherwise people will defect to other games and may not come back, and you want some momentum going into the next chapter so people will buy it.

actionjack · Jul 17, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I think people tend to forget one thing... that the game is not meant to last long. Since GW have no monthly fee, it should be consider as a sort of single player RPG, like Fable or FF or DQ. Therefore, like most of those game, once you finish it, there are few reason to replay and go back to it (unless you are one of those who like lv99 on everything) Many are mistaken to expect a constain update of new content on old world, since that is how things are done in other MMO. Its a nice thought, and would be nice to see that, but A.net don't have much obligation in doing that.

Personally, I am gunning for Chapters for major "New Stuff", but also include expansion (cheaper, 4-6 misssion that would expand on the stories and few new stuffs) for smaller, but more constant updates.

Ganik Thress · Jul 17, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Well, for one, the game isn't pay to play, so I'm sure ANet is a little hesitant to release a stream of such contact like Aera Lure said.

However, what I do hope ANet does in the next chapter is make the story even mediocrally (is it a word? :P) okay. I mean, it started out cool, but then it goes to something that feels extremely rushed.

Quozz · Jul 17, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

After only 2 chapters Guild Wars has hit a crossroads. Anet has some very important decisions to make and they will be critical in determining whether or not GW will be around for the long haul.

As someone else mentioned, PVE and PVP need to be seperated. Its like a marriage that had a great honeymoon but dissolved into a divorce shortly thereafter. Prophecies was the honeymoon and factions is the reality check that the marriage is doomed and needs to be terminated. I'll give Anet an A for effort in trying something new but it just doesn't work. The very things that drive PVP players are almost polar opposites to what drives PVE players.

PVE needs a major transformation. Characters need to grow in order for people to want to continue to play. Right now the PVP balance issue holds back this growth. What is needed are new things for characters to learn so they can further differentiate themselves from every other character of the same profession combo. We need new abilities for every class so that we have choices to make in how our characters grow. Right now the only choice we have to make is what secondary and even that is easily changed.

As a side note to Anet, please distribute new skills differently in chapter 3. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to bring my Tyrian character over to Cantha only to find out all the new skills were immediately available to me (not counting Elites). Where is the sense of adventure in just having these skills handed to me? This one design "feature" hits home that the design team for Factions had a very PVP oriented mindset. Quickly give them the skills so they can get to using them...... No, no, no, No! Us PVE players live for the journey in acquiring new skills. The icing on the cake is being able to use them after but the real fun is the challenge in learning them.

felinette · Jul 17, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Since GW have no monthly fee, it should be consider as a sort of single player RPG, like Fable or FF or DQ. Therefore, like most of those game, once you finish it, there are few reason to replay and go back to it (unless you are one of those who like lv99 on everything)

Agreed, but the problem is that GW needs players. If everyone buys the chapters when they come out, spends a few weeks playing them, and then leaves, there's no one left to group with. The game isn't pay to play, and nobody is expecting tons of new content, but a couple of new quests a month wouldn't kill them. Also, GW *isn't* a single-player RPG--you want players to stick around until the next chapter.

dreamhunk · Jul 17, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quozz

After only 2 chapters Guild Wars has hit a crossroads. Anet has some very important decisions to make and they will be critical in determining whether or not GW will be around for the long haul.

As someone else mentioned, PVE and PVP need to be seperated. Its like a marriage that had a great honeymoon but dissolved into a divorce shortly thereafter. Prophecies was the honeymoon and factions is the reality check that the marriage is doomed and needs to be terminated. I'll give Anet an A for effort in trying something new but it just doesn't work. The very things that drive PVP players are almost polar opposites to what drives PVE players.

PVE needs a major transformation. Characters need to grow in order for people to want to continue to play. Right now the PVP balance issue holds back this growth. What is needed are new things for characters to learn so they can further differentiate themselves from every other character of the same profession combo. We need new abilities for every class so that we have choices to make in how our characters grow. Right now the only choice we have to make is what secondary and even that is easily changed.

As a side note to Anet, please distribute new skills differently in chapter 3. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to bring my Tyrian character over to Cantha only to find out all the new skills were immediately available to me (not counting Elites). Where is the sense of adventure in just having these skills handed to me? This one design "feature" hits home that the design team for Factions had a very PVP oriented mindset. Quickly give them the skills so they can get to using them...... No, no, no, No! Us PVE players live for the journey in acquiring new skills. The icing on the cake is being able to use them after but the real fun is the challenge in learning them.

I have been saying that along time. I was right about pvp and fame! I was right about factions. I am right on the money on this one agin!

Dj Tano · Jul 17, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Its sad to say this but if guild wars doesnt get improven in some way then i suppose everyone should do the following.

START LOOKING FOR OTHER MMORPG'S.

A couple good ones:
World of Warcraft + The Burning Crusade
Lord of the Rings Online
Warhammer Online

Rent · Jul 17, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dj Tano

Its sad to say this but if guild wars doesnt get improven in some way then i suppose everyone should do the following.

START LOOKING FOR OTHER MMORPG'S.

A couple good ones:
World of Warcraft + The Burning Crusade
Lord of the Rings Online
Warhammer Online

Why would I play an MMO? I came to GW just to avoid that.

Chadatog · Jul 17, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

Here we go let's do a count:

Thirty skills were added for each class. Of those, five for each profession were "copy" skills.

Thirty out of one hundred eighty is not "most", as most implies a majority, and this is certainly far from the case. Whether these new skills are as powerful as the old ones is irrelevant.

Actually Domino is even more wrong. The 30 repeat skills were not included in the "new" 30 for each core class. So we actually got 30 new skills and 5 repeats per core class class. So that's a total of about 480 new skills in factions and 30 copies from proficies. For a grand total of 6.25%. Your math is way off Domino.

eternal pho · Jul 17, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I'm glad that the lvl cap was halted at 20 since I really wouldn't want to spend countless hours on lvling up, which isn't much fun.

lyra_song · Jul 17, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quozz

After only 2 chapters Guild Wars has hit a crossroads. Anet has some very important decisions to make and they will be critical in determining whether or not GW will be around for the long haul.

As someone else mentioned, PVE and PVP need to be seperated. Its like a marriage that had a great honeymoon but dissolved into a divorce shortly thereafter. Prophecies was the honeymoon and factions is the reality check that the marriage is doomed and needs to be terminated. I'll give Anet an A for effort in trying something new but it just doesn't work. The very things that drive PVP players are almost polar opposites to what drives PVE players.

I think you want to say the it doesnt work for you. I love the PvP/PvE duality of Guild Wars and i want the line between the two to dissolve and blur further. I like how i can jump from PvP battles to farming/questing very easily. While I agree that pure pvpers and pure pvers are very different in personality and motivation, those players who enjoy both are really the ones who are truly getting the benefits of the way the game is set up.

Quote:

PVE needs a major transformation. Characters need to grow in order for people to want to continue to play. Right now the PVP balance issue holds back this growth. What is needed are new things for characters to learn so they can further differentiate themselves from every other character of the same profession combo. We need new abilities for every class so that we have choices to make in how our characters grow. Right now the only choice we have to make is what secondary and even that is easily changed.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think Chapter 3 needs to introduce more attributes and unique skills for the core classes (and maybe the new classes too) so people can personalize their characters and make the gameplay unique to them.

Quote:

As a side note to Anet, please distribute new skills differently in chapter 3. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to bring my Tyrian character over to Cantha only to find out all the new skills were immediately available to me (not counting Elites). Where is the sense of adventure in just having these skills handed to me? This one design "feature" hits home that the design team for Factions had a very PVP oriented mindset. Quickly give them the skills so they can get to using them...... No, no, no, No! Us PVE players live for the journey in acquiring new skills. The icing on the cake is being able to use them after but the real fun is the challenge in learning them.

Well they are setting up the game for further expansion. By not having rooted skill trainers, except in the newbie area, they are getting rid of the grind for experienced players who just want to go in there and try out all sorts of skills. Theres no need for a skill trainer if you know how the game works already (well...this is debatable, some people wouldnt know how the game works even if they had a few thousand hours in). Pick and choose your skill and play how you want to off the bat.

I think one of the critical flaws in Prophecies was how skills were handled. Everyone essentially used the same build until they reach the southern shiverpeaks area. Your skillsets were very very limited. I remember being a ranger, and wanting to try out traps very early in the game. However, traps were not available to me until the desert. They alleviated this by allowing skill trainers to teach you any skill you unlocked, giving you access to skills just right out of the searing.

The factions way is not flawless either, because it forces a lot of new skills to you that you have no idea how to use. I think a compromise between the two would work better. Perhaps "loaner" skills, that let you test out a new build, then buy the skill if you are happy with how it works.

ElinoraNeSangre · Jul 17, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

The biggest problems, in my opinion, are the size and frequency of the chapters. Everyone understands that as a business venture, ANet is trying to increase revenue by releasing chapters every 6 months rather than every year, but 6 months may not be enough time for some players to fully explore a chapter's content, and that may turn off later purchases. Further, if the players feel 'rushed' through the content in order to complete it before the next chapter's release, they may become disappointed in ANet's business scheme and stop buying subsequent chapters.

That's me.

I love playing GW. But I can't devote the kind of time it would take to get through every chapter and really enjoy it; full time job, writing projects, drumming, keeping my house in order... those things also take time. GW is fun, and a great distraction. I'll probably purchase further chapters, but how much time I'll spend playing them is up in the air. It might be that I make a stab at getting 1 char through per chapter. It's also possible I might figure it's a losing battle and not bother. :: shrug ::

Duly Thankful · Jul 17, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quozz
After only 2 chapters Guild Wars has hit a crossroads. Anet has some very important decisions to make and they will be critical in determining whether or not GW will be around for the long haul.
..
..

Good post. I wholeheartedly agree with you here - PvP gets the limelight but PvE pays for the game. Anet know this, so I expect Ch3 to concentrate more on content to attract the casual player. After all, a few new maps along with whatever new skills are added should appease the PvP players, but it takes more than that to satisfy the extremely large number of PvE-only people. They need to come up with some new ideas to make people pay hard cash for their fun time.